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OCR for page 73
73
Finally, ~ would like to express the gratitude and respect which
we all fee! toward the small and courageous group of our Russian
colleagues who started this fight for human rights and for openness
many years ago, when success looked very, very far away.
My friend, Valery Chalidze, a physicist and one of the founders
of this movement, told me that at one time somebody there proposed
a slogan, "Try to help even if you know that help is impossible." We
are all in an elated mood because of what is happening in Russia, and
what is happening in Argentina,~4 but let us not forget how many
more people in other countries need our help, including countries
where the United States should have leverage.
Let us not ask whether we can help these people, let us not ask
how cost effective it will be. Let us simply try to help.
QUESTIONS AND ANSWERS
EYancis Low
Let me ask members of the panel, first, if they would like to
comment on what has been said.
Yuri OrIov
~ have a question for Lipman. Do you think that, in general, to-
talitarian societies that existed in the past and perhaps will continue
to exist in the future are, as a type, impossible to change?
Lipman Bers
No. There was a theory that once a totalitarian let's say a
communist government Is established, it is unchangeable. This was
the credo of the neoconservatives. ~ never believed in it, and
certainly do not believe it now after what we have seen happening in
Russia.
Within wan said before the adoption of the legislation exempting from
prosecution those believed to have acted under orders from superior military
officers.
OCR for page 74
74
Yuri Oriov
It ~ the first case in Soviet history, the first official announce-
ment of this type of Ambassador KashIev in Vienna at the review
conference. As a person who used to live in a society of the So-
viet type, ~ can attest to the fact that this the of annn~,n`~.~m~nt.
. . ~. . ~. ~ . . ~_
_ A. ,¢ ~_ ~ ~
namely, that the west did have an effect and influence on the Soviet
release of political prisoners, is extremely humiliating for the Soviet
government.
~ can bring forth other examples to prove my point, and I will do
that, though not right now. But I think it is important to recognize
it for what it is.
Lipman Bere
Oh, ~ did not doubt that this statement was humiliating and
that it is important that the statement was made. The question, as
understood it, was did the statement give a full explanation of what
happened, and to this ~ answered no.
Joe] Lebowitz, Rutgers University
~ would~ like to emphasize some of the points that were brought
out and apply them to the practical. It seems to me there were two
important points brought out here that we should take away with us.
First, in connection with particularly the first speaker from Chile,
how important it is to pressure our own government, in the case of
Chile, because that is really where the influence lies, but we can hope
to change. ~ think it is absolutely essential, and also in the case of
South Africa.
In the case of the Soviet Union, and to some extent, also, in the
case of all places in the world where oppression takes places, members
of this academy, their guests, and their colleagues are invited to go,
as we have already heard. to conferences and many time t.h~v an tin
conferences.
T' :~
~o _ V ~
or" Is very, very crucial, it seems to me, that if they do not go
to such meetings in a particular country because of human rights
abuses, that they should be very clear in expressing that. If they go
anyway, it is even doubly important that they make sure that they
do get in contact with the victims of human rights abuses.
OCR for page 75
Even more specifically, what Professor Bers has said, we can
demand from the Soviets to permit their scientists to come to con-
ferences here. We certainly can demand, and should demand, that
when we go to the Soviet Union and to other countries, that we may
have contact with all scientists there.
~ think the committee over here, Dr. Stellar and Carol Carillon,
could be very helpful to members of the academy in supplying them
with information of whom to go to visit, and ~ very much hope that
this is one of the consequences of this session. People will become
aware of it, and if they know colleagues who are going to such places,
they will take that into account.
~ should just mention one final thing, that as Professor Bers said,
the situation ~ not all rosy. At the present time, there are many,
many people in the Soviet Union, in particular well, there are many,
many people in jails in South Africa and in jails in Chile, a terrible
situation but ~ understand, even in the Soviet Union, some of the
people who have been released from jail are on hunger strike in some
of the intermediate centers, because it is still not settled what kinds
of statements they must sign agreeing that they will behave.
Also, very many long-time "refuseniks" are on hunger strikes
because they are afraid that if they do not get permission to leave
now, they may never get it. So, the situation is far from perfect, and
we have a lot to do to improve it.
Eliot Stellar
May ~ just take advantage of Joel Lebowitz's comment and point
out that the Committee on Human Rights does have information on
dissidents and refuseniks in the Soviet Union for any of those of you
who are planning to visit.
Walter John, University of California, Santa Barbara
~ am addressing my friend, Lipman Bers. Lipman Bers took
exception to some remarks made at the table, including suggestions,
~ believe, by Professor Orlov, so now ~ would like to take some
exception to the position taken by Lipman Bers.
It has to do with his judgment of the utility or absence of utility
of openness or of mutual knowledge. Since he is a mathematician,
perhaps ~ will put it imprecisely in mathematical terms. Certainly,
openness is not a sufficient condition or mutual knowledge is not a
sufficient condition for avoiding war.
OCR for page 76
76
On the other hand, particularly in the specific present situation,
where the main threat to peace is the confrontation between the two
superpowers, ~ think increased mutual knowledge and an increased
openness are, in the long run, at least a necessary condition for
eventual disarmament and a long-term solution.
~ remember a position Niels Bohr took when ~ was a nostdoc
in Copenhagen. He argued that the scientists, because they are
. . . · . · . .. .
an International community, a community that naturally, because
of their common interests, transcends national boundaries, have an
obligation and an opportunity to tee in the forefront of ~tahli~hin~
that openness which he felt was needed
where scientists had special qualifications.
[ipman Bere
.
O
much more broadly, but
~ did not express myself clearly. Of course, openness is very
important, and everything should be done to foster it. ~ was talking
about something else; the code word used to be "quiet diplomacy."
Two elderly gentlemen, both distinguished in their own country,
meet, show to each other the pictures of their grandchildren, point
out that in each country there are militarists. We have them and you
have them, and reasonable people must support each other, and "Oh
yes, Sakharov wasn't careful enough and you will not do him any
good by making too much fuss about it." Nothing of this is made
public and then people say, "Well, we established a relationship."
~ was referring to this attitude. ~ would not say a word against
openness.
E-An Zen, U.S. Geological Survey
~ would like to echo the comments of the two previous question-
ers. ~ think it is incumbent upon us to maintain open channels of
communication, however distasteful the political institution may be
in a particular country. It is up to us to help our colleagues to keep
, _ ,,
things open because if we do not. we do not communicate' with t.h~m
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ . ~
we nurr totem, and we hurt ourselves. and we no against the habit
rule of open science.
If we communicate with them, we also could help to keep a
channel of communication open for those who are repressed. Insist of
all, let us not act in such a way that we appear sanctimonious.
~v _ ~
OCR for page 77
77
Yuri Orion
~ would like to say, first of all, when you come into contact with
Soviet official organizations, you are not having contact primarily
with scientists, but rather with government officials. It is an illusion
that you are having free communication with scientists; it is pure
illusion.
For example, when ~ was young and a young scientist was sent
abroad, he had to agree, as a precondition for being allowed to go
abroad, that he would fulfill what was essentially a spy mission.
know that such problems also exist in the United States, but certainly
not to the same degree.
Certainly things have become a bit better in the Soviet Union
as well. Nevertheless, ~ think it is important to remind you that
when scientists are sent here, as a rule they represent very specific
kinds of people and kinds of institutions. What ~ am saying is that
contact should become more free. How do you define free contact if
you invite a specific person and that person is not sent? That is not
a free contact.
Francis Low
Professor Stellar is going to make a few final comments. Before
he does, ~ think that we owe him a real vote of thanks for this
wonderful afternoon, and also Carol Corillon and the staff who work
with her.
OCR for page 78
Representative terms from entire chapter:
lipman bers
